Heathit AS 101: Help with tuning cabinets for deeper bass

[alancohen]

Have you tried reversing the woofer wires? Just wondering because my 101's used to shake the house off the foundation. Although Mine had 604's in them. still they should knock stuff off shelves on their own.

Mine did too. With only 15W/ch they could give CPR from 8' away.

That said, they did not produce that low 30-35Hz rumble. But they did, to use GMs terminology, punch and even thud.

It might be the amp. I'm using very low output impedance ( .4 Ohm ) tube amps, which to my limited knowledge, allows for the significant immediate current draws needed for exciting bass response. Even the 3W cathode follower that's running my BR TV now rocked the house with my Heathkits.

BTW, here is it now. Before:



After this weekends efforts:



Still a work in process...can you tell I'm single?

[mpent]

Hi Alan,

I'm beginning to think I should have taken the trip out to NJ and purchased the 101s you recently had for sale. I'm going to switch the wire leads to the woofers as suggested and see what that does. I'm driving the speakers with a heathkit 151 which typically lacks in low end punch but drove my Fortes pretty well. Let me throw something else out there, when I turn the l pads down all the way, the woofers sound pretty muffled. Is this normal?

Michael

[rontec]

........when I turn the l pads down all the way, the woofers sound pretty muffled. Is this normal?

Michael

Probably not...I would listen to each woofer separately with the hf/cd's/horns disconnected and the crossovers bypassed.If there is still low volume then the woofer voice coils may be damaged.

[cradeldorf]

I agree the Lpads are only to quell the higher efficiency of the horns not to do anything to the bass. Perhaps the LF and HF wires are switched..that could be a real danger to your HF phragms if they are. :/ Your best bet is to start from the inputs on the crossovers and trace out exactly whats going where just to be sure it's all kosher. It wouldn't be the first time I've heard of somebody screwing up the wiring on a heathkit design.

[mpent]

I agree the Lpads are only to quell the higher efficiency of the horns not to do anything to the bass. Perhaps the LF and HF wires are switched..that could be a real danger to your HF phragms if they are. :/ Your best bet is to start from the inputs on the crossovers and trace out exactly whats going where just to be sure it's all kosher. It wouldn't be the first time I've heard of somebody screwing up the wiring on a heathkit design.

Crossovers are wired correctly as per the assembly manual. I'm a little confused now. It seems as if some of the feedback in this thread points to the notion that the bass in this model is pretty weak by design but recent feedback suggests that the bass is fairly strong (shaking the house). Opposite ends of the spectrum.

Perhaps I am explaining myself wrong concerning what I am hearing from the LF.

[bowtie427ss]

Opposite ends of the spectrum.

Or simply interpretations of strong bass, and extended bass that vary from person to person as almost all aspects of sound do.

My WAG is that you are conditioned/trained to listening with a subwoofer in system, perhaps even augmenting VLF beyond a natural or intended level. I'm not aware of any vintage 2-way system designed for or capable of that type of reproduction. In a nutshell, you're hearing/judging the AS-101's with contemporary "bass heavy" pre-conceived expectations.

Just my .02...............................

[fpitas]

I don't think most vintage systems accounted for baffle step, either.

[mpent]

Or simply interpretations of strong bass, and extended bass that vary from person to person as almost all aspects of sound do.

My WAG is that you are conditioned/trained to listening with a subwoofer in system, perhaps even augmenting VLF beyond a natural or intended level. I'm not aware of any vintage 2-way system designed for or capable of that type of reproduction. In a nutshell, you're hearing/judging the AS-101's with contemporary "bass heavy" pre-conceived expectations.

Just my .02...............................

Yes!!!! I agree 100%...and this is the precise issue that I have been trying to tease out in my own head. I am a complete novice when it comes to DIY audio and this is very much a budding hobby of mine. These speakers have been my first project. My first attempt at soldering in new caps; l pads and assessing sound output etc. Frankly, I don't even know what you mean when you differentiate between strong bass and extended bass. I am trying to balance what is pleasing to my ears and whether these speakers are sounding as they were intended to sound. To further complicate things, there is this nagging part of my psyche that further complicates this endeavor by creating pause...perhaps wonder...of whether I actually wired everything in correctly considering this my first attempt and if indeed I did, then wow...I am surpirsed that you did it right on your first try. My neurosis can be good but it can also drive me nuts.

That being said what will stop this insanity is a confirmation of whether my woofers are operating properly. I suppose if they test to spec then I can rest easy knowing that these speakers are sounding as they should and I can add a sub when I feel like adding a sub to get the sound that is more pleasing to my ears. So, please, can someone recommend the best way of going about this. I have a digital multimeter.

My guess is that they are operating properly. Sans the subwoofer, I have listened to a variety of music...jazz, rock, classical from a variety of source recordings (vinyl, cd). Jazz always sounds phenomenal. Rock...depending on what I am listening to...sounds very good as well. It's just that when I add a sub I get the bass response that I enjoy and I'm struggling with that because what I am thinking is that I should be getting a very good response from a 15 inch woofer as that in the 101s. Thank you everyone for all your input.....so perhaps one last stream of assistance on testing those woofer, please....

Michael

[bowtie427ss]

That being said what will stop this insanity is a confirmation of whether my woofers are operating properly. I suppose if they test to spec then I can rest easy knowing that these speakers are sounding as they should and I can add a sub when I feel like adding a sub to get the sound that is more pleasing to my ears. So, please, can someone recommend the best way of going about this. I have a digital multimeter.

There's nothing wrong with a little faith in your ear/brain connection.

Frankly, I don't even know what you mean when you differentiate between strong bass and extended bass.

Strong bass = Michael Jackson's "Billy Jean" bass line that get's you moving and reaching for the volume knob for some clockwise rotation even if you hate the song.

Extended bass = 64 foot pedal bombard stop on a large pipe organ, T-rex walking thru the jungle on a Telarc CD, the note at the end of "Lucky Man" by Emerson Lake and Palmer, essentially the lowest musical octave on down into the subsonic realm where acoustic energy is mostly palpable and barely audible................................... 16hz.

Just an example of my interpretations...........................

[alancohen]

Or simply interpretations of strong bass, and extended bass that vary from person to person as almost all aspects of sound do.

My WAG is that you are conditioned/trained to listening with a subwoofer in system, perhaps even augmenting VLF beyond a natural or intended level. I'm not aware of any vintage 2-way system designed for or capable of that type of reproduction. In a nutshell, you're hearing/judging the AS-101's with contemporary "bass heavy" pre-conceived expectations.

Agreed! I fell into the same trap. I also had (have) a 10" subwooder that I used with my crappy little satellite speakers for years. In order to get any bass whatsoever I had to turn the sub way up. Once I replaced the satellites with the Heathkits and left the sub out I felt something missing. I put the sub back in and it was back.

But a funny thing happened along the way, my musical tastes changed and expanded. Altec drivers, along with tube amplifiers, educated me to the nuance of more delicate and sophisticated music. I now enjoy more acoustic music, especially jazz. My subwoofer is startlingly out of place now. I learned I had the sub turned way up beyond the point of what would have been heard live or what the recording engineer intended. When I use it now. I keep the volume knob on 1-1/2 instead of 5 where I had it before. But to tell you the truth, it doesn't really enhance the experience. Mostly it's off.

I like the thump of good bass repsonse as much as anyone, but not at artificial levels that distort the intended musical experience. I have learned that the thump of a bass drum or the low E on a bass guitar are not located in that lower frequency spectrum. As far as I can tell, 30Hz does not thud, it rumbles. 40Hz is all I need for my listening taste and I do not want to give up that "in your chest' thumpy mid-bass for the occasional 30Hz passage.

I have also noticed that with the sub off, I can still hear very low frequencies depending on where I am in the house. The room acoustics plays a vital role in the ability to hear these very long sound waves. It is very possible that your speakers are producing them, you just can't here them because some aspect of your room is thwarting them.